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Re: Finding Center

Posted By: Walter R. Mattfeld
Date: Tuesday, 10 September 2002, at 4:01 a.m.

In Response To: Finding Center (Charles Pope)

Charles,

My comments are interleaved in your missive.

Charles:
You are not trying very hard to understand the simple, common sense logic put forth on this site.

Walter:
What a slap in the face Charles, I bother to take the time to critique your theory and point out its weaknesses and because I don't "buy into it" I am characterized as "not trying very hard to understand it" (this is common stratagem of "fringe theorists" when objections are raised to their theories).

Charles:
Toponym transfer occurred FROM Egypt TO Palestine, not the other way around. Egypt was the "center." It produced the stuff that legends are made of. These legends, history, Holy Writs, myths or whatever one wishes to call them spread outward, not only to Palestine but also to Arabia, to the interior of Africa and even to Greece and other far away climes. Many events and places of Egypt became naturalized to new homes, whereever royal refugees from Egypt were able to take them. In the case of Canaan and parts of Arabia, those regions were once part of the Egyptian empire. Denizens of those districts would naturally have considered the history of Egypt to be there own. The process of toponym and history transfer likely began during the dynastic period itself.

Walter:
You make a number of unsubtantiated statements and turn a blind eye to the "Bigger Picture." First, Although Egypt was a mighty civilization had some influence on Canaan and Israel, another source of influence was Mesopotamia, Phoenicia and Syria. My studies into these cultures presents a different picture from the one you are painting. Your model has Egypt being the Primary Source of Israel's presentation of History, transforming Egyptian topynyms,and pharaohs into places in Canaan and Israelite kings. My research reveals that although there are borrowings from Egypt, they are MINIMAL. MOST of the borrowings in religious beliefs about God are from Mesopotamia and Syria, NOT Eggypt. I would suggest Charles, that you get your nose out of Egyptology for a while and investigate the myths and and religious beliefs and conventions of Phoenicia, Syria and Mesopotamia as THE SOURCE for the Bible's imagery NOT Egypt. AT a loss where to begin ? Go to my website, www.bibleorigins.net and check out the books listed under the Bibliography Menu- a whole NEW WORLD awaits you Charles, in your search for the truth !

Charles:
This is why I say that the reconstruction of the ancient world must become a multi-discipline endeavor.

Walter:
Agreed. I don't see any evidence on your part of a "multi-disciplined effort". All you cite is Egyptian, no reference to the influence of Phoenician, Syrian and Mesopotamian relgious beliefs, motifs and concepts- Yours is a "skewed Egyptian" presentation IGNORING the influence of other cultures beliefs that ARE preserved in the Bible.
Got no clue as what I am talking about ? I suggest you read my articles in the Old Testament Menus pointing out the Israelite "borrowings and transformation" of Mesopotamian(and SOME Egyptian) motifs and concepts.

Charles:
A trained archaeologist recently told me that I was acusing archaeologists of being "wedded to preconceptions." Well, yes I was, and I could not have said it any better myself! I did not mean for my words to be taken personally, but he nevertheless did. As they say, "if the shoe fits, wear it."

Walter:
Before you remove the splinter from the other's eye, you need to attend to the beam in your own eye. You are blinded to your own "prconceptions that you have become wedded to" in your ignorance of the influence of other cultures on Egypt. For you, EVERYTHING is from Egypt.

Charles:
All professions have blind spots, but they can be overcome with a little help from an independent observer. It is painful and embarrassing when major flaws in our concept of reality are exposed. Those who kindly point them out are inevitably attacked.

Walter:
I identify with this analysis. Here I am pointing out to you your blind spts and weaknesses and you attack me as "NOT trying very hard to understand" your case! It is you who are defensive in protecting your theory. You have transferred YOUR fears onto your opponents.

Charles:
So far, academics have fought off strong challenges from Velikovsky, James, Osman and Rohl. But old institutions must eventually change or perish. Despite all of their sacrifice (and we should be grateful), archaeologists are now the keepers of a model of human history that does not take human nature into account. It will not stand. If you are happy with a warped view of history, you are welcome to it. If not, join us here in pursuit of something far better.

Walter:
The strength of the "Old institutions" is that THEY ARE WILLING to listen to "Fringe theories", investigate them and point out their weaknesses and problems. Now if they NEVER gave the time of day to "Fringe" theories, and dismissed them without studying the arguments, THEN they would stand accused of not being real searchers after the Truth (but in my experience, the "fringe" has had its day in Court, the theories didn't hold up to critical and rational investigation and they were dismissed).

All the best, Walter

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