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Author Topic: The Sun and It's "12 Sons"  (Read 18090 times)
Chuck-Star
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« on: September 06, 2010, 10:30:21 PM »

I did do some "cosmic thinking" this summer about the solar system and mythology, and made a few posts here and there:

See the post, The Sun and Its "12 Sons":
https://groups.google.com/group/dark-star-planet-x/browse_thread/thread/26c7678c39622d26/5547032e33f57820?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Jacob#5547032e33f57820

or

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!topic/dark-star-planet-x/JsdnjDliLSY

(http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/)

This thread at The Daily Grail was a wild one:
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/daz/2010/8/Remote-viewing-the-origin-the-asteroid-belt
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Jay-Kinney/2010/6/Do-we-want-real-history-or-lucid-dreams

This post is a review of the Discovery/Science Channel special on the Kofels Impact Event of 3124 BC, which originally aired in 2008 (and was shown again this summer):
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-Pope/2010/8/Kofels-Impact-Event
Here are some related pages:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34226
http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg83983.html
http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Mysteries-Explained-3-Episodes-Gomorrah/dp/B002KPFNRS
http://www.bobcargill.com/media.htm

« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 01:43:17 PM by Chuck-Star » Logged
Chuck-Star
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 02:31:54 AM »

Finally getting some interaction on the post at the Dark Star Forum.  I also added another comment to the Kofels thread at The Daily Grail.
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 01:55:17 AM »

Much more discussion on both threads over the weekend.

I think the matter of human survival has been settled:  "If everything else fails, then maybe."
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2010, 09:49:16 PM »

I placed one more post on the Dark Star forum with additional insights into the planets to patriarchs mapping.  This has finally come to a reasonably satisfying conclusion!   I would normally just lock myself away and sort these things out on my own, but I've developed a need for other people to suffer with me!!  Enjoy.
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2010, 07:12:17 PM »

Interesting analysis of the Dendera Zodiac and how it might have been used to date Cleopatra's succession (but probably not the death of her father, Ptolemy Auletes/Marc Antony) by marking the positions of the five visible planets against the backdrop of the stars.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2010/07/decoding-the-ancient-egyptians-stone-sky-map.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 11:19:33 PM »

Hey Charles,

A couple of questions... If this Dendera Zodiac is accutate showing dates of eclipses and such, (verifyed in astronomical terms) would it have an impact on the dating theories (1159BC) you've presented? I thought that the Dendera was older than the time of Cleopatra? I guess I'm just searching for something concrete in dating a period.

 Also as you share in the opening chapters of the online book of the twisting of the (Tor)ah, would it be possible that the 1159BC date could be the starting of the Middle Kingdom. With 1500 years or so streatched out with all the previous extended lifetimes (reigns) from the earlier impact event? With several centuries missing, a time lasp kinda like...we now return to our program in progress. Just a thought, I'm not sure why the 3124BC event wouldn't fit into the scheme of the beginning of the Old Kingdom.

BTW the Kinney thread posted above was one of the best I've read at TDG. Even the skeptics showed wonderful insight.
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 12:25:09 AM »

Hi TS,

1159 BC could be the correct date for the start of the Middle Kingdom and 1628 BC could be the start of the Old Kingdom.  I just don't see this as the most likely now ... but stay tuned - that that could totally change after this short commercial intermission!

I thought the Dendera article was interesting in that I didn't know anyone had thought to match the planet positions to a fixed date in history.  The dating of Cleopatra's reign probably isn't too far off from actual.  I'd say it needs to slide forward about 10 years or so.  So, maybe that would mean the planet alignments marked a different milestone in Cleopatra's career, but still likely honors either her or her father, or both.
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 06:02:54 AM »

Ahh yes, if the 1628 BC would make more sense in terms of the start Old Kingdom, then dating the Middle Kingdom after the 1159BC event would fit. I was just contemplating Genesis 10 and the introduction of that altered genealogy.

 Moving foward in the "story" I seem to get stuck trying to reconcile the introduction of the age Aries not being introduced untill circa 800 BC. Surely with the dedication to being in their correct time, they wouldn't wait 1200 years to define it? Moses was clearly upset that the preisthood had become so corrupt and negligent. They were still living in the Bull of Heaven. But wait theres more, propoganda and politics notwithstanding this seems to me that this also a marked a move away from goddess worship, not that such practice stopped immediately. Aserath and Baal were going strong and in Ezekiel they still cry for Tammaz(Osiris/Dumuzi)

Interestingly the preisthood to the east had defined this time (Aries) much eariler. An example being in the Sumarian story of the Decent of Innana. As she approached the gatekeeper on her road to the east, she is asked why she would travel to where no traveler returns? she replys "Because of my older sister Ereshkigal, Her husband, Guglalanna, the Bull of Heaven has died. I have come to witness his funeral rites". Now I realize that all such stories are woven with the (then already) ancient memory of the forming of our solar system. Inanna plays the part of being the planet Venus as she rises before the morning Sun. The story is as well a recalling of their ancestrial royality/family and the roles they played. This and other stories would apparently be rehearsed on festivals and religious cermony annually, or even monthly on the new moon with public attendence. A royal wedding would involve playing these roles acting out the play of the cosmos with fertillity rights on the special prepaired bed to assure good crops and flocks.  I digress, sorry..

My point is that this story must be centuries eariler than the Armana period. We also know that there was  comunication within the royal family in the different nations. In the book The Great Pyrimid its Divine Message (Davidson/Aldersmith) it is shown that Aries was either shifted or alloted more space from 20 to 30 degrees in the night sky, though I don't recall when they thought this occured.  It appears that the zodiacs around the mideast/mediterranean world shared many simularities but were not universal quite yet. So many implacations would show the Egyptian priests were quite advanced in their astronomical knowledge.

My puzzlement is why would Egypt be so far behind in this when the (then) Holy Land was supposed to be the place to learn it all? Oh well, I guess I'll have to think some more on this. Maybe this is as simple as, politics of the day?
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 10:50:58 PM »

Reminds me also of the episode in Judges 6 where Gideon tears down the cult (Baal & Asherah) apparatus of his father.  "Get with the times old man."

The Exodus story is a composite so dating is clearly impossible.  The original inspiration could have been thousands of years before Akhenaten or even Hammurabi.  Likewise the story of Joseph is a composite.  Scholars have noted the many anachronisms, but have failed to understand the source.

The actual chronology of the ancient world still eludes us, however we can at least say that Academia "can't handle the truth".  Even the various likely alternative datings for the beginning of the Old Kingdom are all "socially unacceptable".

And, yes, truly amazing that the religions of the ancient world were an attempt to retell the story not only of our solar system but possibly of the entire galaxy.  12/13 major constellations, 12/13 major planets, 12/13 major tribes of Israel.  "It's chaotic above so look out below."  (correlary to the Hermetic maxim)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 10:56:40 PM by Chuck-Star » Logged
Chuck-Star
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 09:47:25 PM »

The discussion of Planet-to-Patriarch mapping at the Dark Star forum has been dead for nearly a year now, so I'm mirroring my comments from that page here just to make sure they don't dissappear from the web.  

http://groups.google.com/group/dark-star-planet-x/browse_thread/thread/26c7678c39622d26#
 
Hi, this is Charles ("Chuck the Puck") Pope from DomainOfMan.com.  I
wanted to share some of my latest research with you all, as it is
entirely supportive of the Dark Star theory.  Essentially, the
Biblical concept of "Jacob and his twelve sons" was derived from
knowledge of our solar system and its thirteen most significant
bodies.  Jacob represents the Sun (Re) who prevailed in adversity.
Reuben (Geb) the eldest prince is intemperate and impetuous, ala
Mercury.  Venus (Thoth) and Earth (Set) are twins (i.e., those planets
are very similar in size and geological makeup), and are represented
by Simeon and Levi.  Simeon and Levi are also brutal killers,
particularly of one of their brothers, the fifth son Issachar
(Shechem), who corresponds to what is now the Asteroid Belt.  Issachar
also mirrors the Egyptian god Sekhem/Sokar/Osiris, who was beheaded
and had his other parts scattered widely.  Judah (Horus the Elder) the
fourth son corresponds to Mars ... and so on and so forth until we get
to the twelfth and youngest son Benjamin corresponding to our Sun's
twin.  Benjamin (Horus the Younger) is a small but highly promising
prince that tragically dies young.  There is also a close affinity
between Jacob and Benjamin.  An amplified characterization of Benjamin
is found in his Greek counterpart Hercules, who was a mighty champion
but ended up killing his own sons.  Another representation is found in
the Mesopotamian hero Lugalbanda ("Little Big Man").  Interestingly,
the Egyptian Horus was not born until just after the murder of Osiris.
The Babylonian Creation Myth is an other/alternative ("minority
report") version of the killing of Issachar/Osiris.  (It seems even
ancient astronauts could not agree on our local cosmology, and how
could they so many billions of years after the fact.)  In that
Babylonian account the 5th Planet is personified as an imperious
queen.  For her haughtiness, she is smashed in the mouth and then
split in two.  Part of her remains become the Earth and its
atmosphere.  The Greeks had a similar myth about Aphrodite (Venus)
emerging full-formed from the head of Zeus.  However, I agree with
Andy and others that the twin sun probably did not directly cause the
destruction of an inner planet, but more likely "enlisted" the help of
other celestial bodies "under its (gravitational) control".  What's
more, a myth dealing with a one-time event associated with the
original formation of our solar system has been confused with a
recurring nightmare, that of bombardment by comets and asteroids.
That is it in a nutshell.  For a more in-depth discussion please
follow these links:

Planets and Patriarchs:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=55.msg288#msg288

Constellations and Patriarchs:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=64.msg345#msg345

Mayan Comparative Mythology:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=61.0

Review of Andrew Collins, “Beneath the Pyramids”:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=66.msg362#msg362

2012 and Recurring Destruction Indicated by Tree-Ring and Ice-Core
Data:
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=38.0
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=39.0
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=3.0

Association of Patriarchs with Egyptian Gods:
http://www.domainofman.com/book/tut-1.html

Andy, et. al:
An interpretation of the "Followers of Horus" in terns of our solar
system would be as planets and other entities orbiting the
(prospective) sub-brown dwarf.  From Egyptian myth there are four main
followers/sons.  From Greek myth, Hercules was generally associated
with a group of five (as in the five main companions of the Hercules-
figure Alexander the Great).  Hercules detroyed the  sons of his first
wife in a fit of rage.  However, after Athena struck him on the head
with a rock, he sought absolution from his "sins" and was assigned a
number of "labors", such as stealing the cattle of the Sun.  He then
took a new wife and had additional children of both sexes.  One son
was called Hyllus ("The Star").

There are definitely a cosmic overtone to the Hercules Cycle (of
myths).  Whether it reflected a true understanding of the nature of
our solar system and how it reached its present state is of course
difficult to say, but it does appear to have been an attempt.
From the perspective of our planet the "exploits" of a twin sun are in
fact intensely tragic, especially if they were blamed for the
continued destruction on Earth caused by asteroids and comets.
However, the twin sun would of course be the champion of any life-
sustaining planets that revovle around it.  That sun (although small
and dim) had conquered the other sun (although large and bright).
By the way, "Chuck the Puck" is short for "Chuck the Inter-Planetary
Hockey Puck".

Hope you had a Herculean "Labor Day"

Andy,
The books I have only mention one reference to the "Followers of
Horus" in ancient Egypt.  This is in the so-called Turin Royal Canon
(of Egyptian 19th Dynasty vintage).  In this document (king-list) the
pre-dynastic rulers of Egypt are called "Followers of Horus".  There
is also a much later reference by the historian Plutarch.  He writes
that the hippo goddess Taweret deserted the god Set and became a
"follower of Horus".  So, not much to go on.  But, I suppose Adrian
Gilbert would have considered the three Magi as "Followers of Horus".
Later, Jesus had three main disciples, Peter, James, and John.
The "Four Sons of Horus" are in comparison much more frequently found
in ancient Egypt, however almost exclusively in the context of death
and burial (as funerary deities/genii).  Interestingly, their primary
benefit to the deceased is to guard against hunger and thirst (more
about this below).  The fact that there was a "Horus the Elder" and
"Horus the Younger" complicates the Horus typecasting.  In some
instances the four sons of Horus are explicitly named as sons of Horus
the Elder.  Incidently, it is also the right eye of Horus the Elder
that is equated to the sun.  His left eye, associated with the moon,
was damaged in battle with Set, but later restored.  The eye of Re is
also significant in Egyptian mythology, but generally associated with
a goddess (as an extension of Re's authority) rather than a purely
solar symbol.

Something else that Adrian Gilbert sees as significant, and makes the
final point of his Magi book, is that the constellation of Orion is
now at its "highest" (most northern) position in the sky during the
precessional cycle.  I agree that this is quite remarkable in the
sense that the god Osiris (equated with Orion) was violently killed in
his prime.  In New Testament parlance, the Osiris figure John the
Baptist is at the peak of his popularity when he proclaims, "I must
decrease, and he [Jesus/Horus] must increase".  John the Baptist was
decreased rather suddenly by beheading (as Osiris was also
decapitated).  The Osiris figure signals ("prepares the way", acts as
"forerunner") for the Horus figure.  When the Osiris figure is at the
height of his powers he is brutally suppressed.  However, the Horus
figure is not judged for this.  Instead, calamity is blamed on the
vanity and pride of the Osiris figure, and the drastic action of the
Horus figure is justified and even praised as the exploit of a
champion and savior.  (The leading Horus figures of the Old Testament
were Joshua son of Nun and King David.  They could be classified as
socio-pathic killers, but
Biblical history paints them as beloved and celebrated warriors.)
The Horus figure among the sons of Jacob is called Benjamin.  He is
the youngest and most cherished.  His father is paranoid that
something very bad is going to happen to him.  Judah (corresponding to
Horus the Elder) is the primary protector of Benjamin (in the role of
Horus the Younger).  Joseph is very much fixated on Benjamin, but his
main concern is giving him a silver cup.  Joseph happily accepts the
decision of Jacob for the birthright (of kingly succession) to be
transferred from Judah to him.  However, Joseph is just as eager for
the cup of suffering to be passed to Benjamin.  The setting of this
story (Genesis 42) is one of severe famine and starvation.  Benjamin
is on the surface a tender child.  Yet, he is implicitly associated
with stealing grain and thereby sealing the fate of the people.
Benjamin strangely appears unexpectedly in the Genesis narrative and
just as quickly vanishes.  However, in the Blessings of Jacob,
Benjamin is called a "wolf that rapidly devours its prey".  This
requires some explanation.

Jesus in the Gospels similarly prays that "the cup" (of intense agony
and death) might be taken from him (and likewise pass to another).  We
aren't told, at least directly, whether the request was granted, but
there are reasons to believe that the place of Jesus was actually
taken by someone else.  Jesus is however the central New Testament
Benjamin, and consistent with that, he comes "out of Egypt" from the
south as a young child.  His ordeal ("crucifixion") is followed by a
miraculous "resurrection".  Jesus ultimately "ascends to
Heaven" (heads north) forty days later.  The name Benjamin means "son
of the right hand" and connotes "son of the south".  It's not obvious
what "right hand" signifies in a planetary sense.  Probably it
indicates east (for the "coming of the Son of Man" is swift "like
lightning flashing from the east to the west".  "South" clearly
indicates "from below".  This is made doubly clear by Benjamin's
return/ascension to the north after a time of "Great Tribulation" upon
the Earth.

The Osiris and Horus "Passion Play" was re-enacted by the royal family
religiously in every generation.  Minor natural disasters came and
went.  However, the purpose of the perpetual recycling of the myth
appears to be as a reminder that the "big one" was eventually coming
again.  The last super disaster (that ended the Ice Age) occurred half
a precessional cycle ago.  Does that mean we have another half a
precessional cycle before it repeats?  I certainly hope so, but there
have been a series of other devastating blows to Earth since circa
10,700 BC.  So, exactly how often does the "wolf come knocking on the
door"?

Who's afraid of the "big bad wolf"?  He won't blow our house down!
And if he does, we won't know what got our little piggies anyway.
Just look at the careful selection of symbols in the Benjamin story.
The cup is not gold but silver, indicating a dimmer sun.  It is not so
much distinguished for drinking but divining (foretelling the future,
particularly future catastrophe).  They not only were trying to
preserve the memory of what happened by when it had happened and when
it was due to happen again.  But, "does anybody really know what time
it is, does anybody really care, about time"? (I'm telling my age!)
The Horus typecasting is that of a little but powerful dude (such as
King David).  But if Horus was a relatively small celestial entity,
what was he relatively small in comparison to?  The sun or the earth?
I follow Andy's logic that a sun-sized object just couldn't zip into
the inner solar system without then careening off into outer space.
But a Mars-sized object could, and possibly only wonder back out to as
little as 80-100 AU as Barry calculated.  That's an orbit comparable
to Eris/Xenia, which also seems to be one of the "Followers of Horus",
i.e., a planet whose orbit is dictated by the interaction of our sun
and a "dark star".  Could the "planet of crossing" be just another
(still undetected) planet like Eris and Xenia.  Horus did have at
least four "sons".  King David had his inner circle of three mighty
men of valor as well as thirty other rowdy thugs.  In Hebrew, thirty
(lamed) is also the number associated with Benjamin.  And it is the
number of "pieces of silver" accepted by Judas to betray Jesus.
I'm thinking (out loud) that Horus may have become confused with one
of his "Followers".  Horus remains at a far distance, but his "mighty
men" wreak havoc like bowling balls.

The Christ myth indicates that the Horus (or one of his "Followers")
descends from heaven only to be "crucified" (ala Sitchin's Sumerian
planet of crossing).  He then goes into the "underworld" for a brief
time before "resurrecting" and then "ascending" back into the
heavens.  A literal three days would be too short for a planet to dip
below the ecliptic and then rise again.  The forty day period between
resurrection and ascension (disappearance from the naked eye) sounds
too short also, but maybe the ratio is about right.  Also, it would
make more sense if the body enters the ecliptic from the "north",
spends some time below in the underworld of the "south" and then goes
back to the "north".

The other thing that may be causing confusing is the difference
between a "Creation Myth" and an on-going recurring event.  The
Babylonian Creation Myth seems to be an attempt to describe the
"primal scene", something that happened a billion years ago or more.
Possibly that did involve a close encounter with another sun.  In the
Babylonian Myth, Marduk humbles proud Tiamat.  In the Egyptian
version, it is the vain and effeminate Osiris that takes the beating.
The recurring nightmare of bombardment on Earth could be a lasting
consequence of that one-off event, but probably has more to do now
with the failed star "Marduk/Horus" punishing us from afar (and
through the action of his fanatical "Followers").

By the way, in Greek history/legend, the Heraclids ("Followers of
Heracles") invaded the Peloponnese every 50 years (whether they needed
to or not).  It was just the "right thing to do"!
Oops, I meant to say Eris/Xenia and Sedna are the newly discovered
rogue planets (of crossing) and not Eris and Xenia.
…But what just dawned on me today is that Jesus was crucified with two
(other) criminals.  So, the implication is that we need to find at
least one more major rogue planet (and possibly three more, as the
number of Hercules is five) and at least 30 minor ones (which may be
long-period comets and such), not to mention the Dark Star itself.
And Alan, by all means chop wood, it's better than pounding sand.  But
surviving the next "Return of Christ/Horus" isn't something we can
expect to do on our own.  Even if we're lucky enough to be in a place
where survival is possible, eventually we'll be over-run by an "Exodus
party" whose "God-given" mandate is to drive us from the land.  Do you
recall the Narmer Palette?  The Horus figure Narmer ("Striking
Catfish") is going around exterminating people like "lapwings".  He
isn't helping people survive the catastrophe of that time, but ridding
the land of a resource burden (so that those resources can be claimed
by his "chosen people").

There are indications that Narmer and the ruling family of pre-
dynastic Mesopotamia had 120 years notice of the next cataclysm and
were therefore able to survive it with stockpiles of grain and an army
to defend it (and themselves).  Dendrology records now show that the
Mediterranean went up to 20 years with no tree growth (and therefore
no food harvests) as recently as 1159 BC (exactly 13 Venus Cycles
ago).  Yet, somehow a few people did survive along the Nile and
perhaps other places where there were sources of food other than
agriculture.  And many survived that Great Tribulation only to be
massacred when it was over!  It appears that those who have knowledge
of the "day and hour of Christ's return" use it to renew their power
as lords of the Earth.

There are reports of vast underground shelters being prepared by
governments today, but we haven't been offered a cave condo in any of
these "cities of refuge", now have we?.  As Monica Lewinsky might say,
Who do ya gotta blow to get reservation in this joint?  Life on Earth
can be pretty good for privileged Horus figures and their Followers,
but for the rest of humanity it's been one long "Trail of Tears".
Possibly the Gospel's "three on the cross" represents a main planet of
crossing with two moons/satellites?

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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 09:48:50 PM »

As a dedication to the ninth anniversary of 9/11, here's a schematic
of the Book of Revelation's prediction for the "End of the World" and
start of the next "New Age":

According to the Book of Revelation, the End of the World is
precipitated by a "beautiful woman clothed with the sun" (a planet
passing in review), who at that moment symbolically gives birth to the
Messiah (Neo-Horus) and is therefore chased by a devilish dragon
(obviously in gravitational tow).  Michael, the angelic guise of
Judah, the fourth son (and fourth planet Mars) engages this "dragon"
with his helpers (the asteroids?) but only succeeds in casting deadly
debris onto Earth.  Nice try Mikey.

Leading up to this Return of Horus, there is a campaign of propaganda
(white horse), intense drought (red horse), famine and plagues (black
horse), and violence and death (pale horse).  This is intensified by
showers of space rocks that make the skies roil and the earth recoil.
Those with money and influence head for their fancy bunkers and
everyone else for a crevice.   Next, the landscape is set on fire by
the fall-out of super-heated space shrapnel and perhaps accentuated by
volcanic eruptions and associated lightning storms.  After this,
increasingly bigger space rocks bombard land and sea.  Dust clouds
reach the upper atmosphere and diminish sun and moon light.  A great
army of 200 million then goes on a killing spree.  There is also
widespread anarchy and violence.  Two witnesses arive on the scene to
protest all the military aggression.  They are eventually suppressed
but miraculously come back to life before rising up to heaven shrouded
in cloud.

When the beautiful planet (Horus body) appears, a world government is
formed under the Anti-Christ (i.e., Ante-Christ) out what still
remains of the former Roman Empire.  The forerunner-figure is
traditionally a stutterer (ala John the Baptist), so a smooth talking
deputy is appointed to rally obedience to the new regime and to
organize persecution of the devotees of Christ.  This sexy spokesmodel
even calls down fire from the sky like Elijah (the Old Testament
equivalent of John the Baptist).  At this juncture, the newborn "Son
of Man" appears and begins killing everybody that was forced into
accepting the mark of the beast/Anti-Christ.  There follows more
plague, more famine, more scorching heat, and more noxious
contaminants from on high.

A final battle then takes place between the Christ figure and the Anti-
Christ figure at Armageddon (mirroring the mythic show-down between
Horus and Set in this very same place).  The Christ figure wins and
takes over the world government and everybody (still standing) lives
happily ever after (or at least for the next 1,000 years before the
dragon is let loose and vanquished once more).

So, this scenario is highly consistent with the effects from a "planet
of crossing" (with two satellites/witnesses).  The Earth has obviously
endured this event many times before, and at least enough times for
"management" to predict its next occurrence with some accuracy.  The
game plan has not changed much from the previous time around, however
it will have a decidedly high-tech twist.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to be one of the
144,000 selected to be with the "good guys".  (6.6 billion and
counting ultimately reduced to well less than a million.)
Sorry to be posting like a meteor shower, but wanted to hit this hard
while I have the time and desire.

Science Reporter E.P. Grondine assures me that WISE is done with its
preliminary scan of the entire night sky and has found no "Nemesis"
threat:

http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-Pope/2010/8/Kofels-Impact-Event

That is a relief ... yet the asteroids keep whizzing by!

The phrase, "a woman clothed with the sun", may represent a Venus
transit.  In myth, a transit "exposes the form of the
goddess" (through silhouetting/back-lighting), which can lead to her
deadly retaliation (on the one who is sneaking a peak).  The Book of
Revelation could just be putting this in a better light, so to speak.
A Venus-figure also exposes herself to Moses in the Exodus account
(Genesis 33;19-23) during a world-ending event (or at least a
redramatization of one).  What's more, Venus can be equated to the
Egyptian Isis son of Horus.  The last monster impact event did
perchance coincide with a Venus transit in 1159 BC.  There was no tree
growth for about 20 years in Europe afterwards.  We are now living
exactly 13 Venus Cycles later.

I suppose a woman has to show herself in order to get pregnant.  But
in terms of solar system causality, I'm not seeing an obvious parallel
representing the "rebirth of Christ/Horus".  Possibly the cyclical
passing of a great comet just happens to be in synch with the Venus
Cycles.  Or, since the Venus Cycle was coincident last time, it was
expected (superstitiously) to happen that way again.
If "the woman clothed with the sun" in Revelation is Venus, then
perhaps the two witnesses would be a play on the double-transit nature
of Venus Cycles.  Or, it could mean that one or more other planets are
complicit, such as Mercury, Mars, or Jupiter.  The Mayan sources
indicate that the underworld god Bolon Yokte K'u has a part to play in
the end of the world scenario.

http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=61.msg322#msg322
But in this model, who then are the "three on the cross"?  Do they
represent three main elements of the comet itself.  And what is the
cause of the planetary heating and consequent famine?  The Mayan/Meso-
American legends equate these end of the world events with the death
and rebirth of the sun.  In other words, it is the "Dark Star" that
always triumphs and is referred to as "Sol Invictus".  It is the
"Bright Star" that is periodically defeated and must be reborn.
Or maybe it just depends upon whose side you take in the struggle.
I'm starting to suspect that the Book of Revelation is a compendium of
every aweful attack from outer space that could be remembered in the
1st Cent. AD.  The element of Satan/Lucifer being bound for 1,000
years is a dead give away.  There was a 1,000 year hiccup starting
around 10,700 BC when the Earth returned to Ice Age conditions.  It
was like the sun was being "bound" or punished for heating things up
too fast.  (In many respects the Ice Age world was far more stable for
human habitation.)

It seems fairly clear that a comet was the trigger for ending the last
Ice Age around 13,865 BC.  Ice core and tree ring analysis indicates
that this comet returned in 10,700 BC, 7,553 BC, and 4400 BC.  That's
an interval of about 3154 years.  I think they call this comet, Enke.
After this a new comet seems to have started up around 3100 BC ("start
of the Mayan Calender event") and returned at intervals of around 666
years.  It may not have completely played out until 453 AD.  There
were also some possibly isolated catastrophes, which may have been
caused primarily by volcanoes, such as Hekla/Iceland and Thera/
Santorini (the actual date is still hotly debated).  The 1159 BC event
was probably volcanic and would have inspired the Exodus story in the
Bible.  The (female) "Lord" showing Moses her backside is one of the
most bizarre passages in the Bible.  But once we recognize the
planetary inspiration, it's not quite so weird.

Possibly we're out of the woods for awhile, at least from global
horrors of a cosmic source.  We still have both natural and completely
man-made disasters to watch out for!

The Book of Revelation accomplished its goal.  It truly terrifies.
It's at least of some comfort that we may be on the verge of
discovering the reasons for so much of our troubles here on Earth,
even if we are still very limited in what we can do about it.
Well this thread is growing a little long (and everybody's indulgence
perhaps a little thin).  I think it's been a worthwhile exercise
though.

The mapping of Jacob & Co. to the planets still strikes me as
completely reasonable and valid, but I'd like to propose a slight
alteration.  The inner planets aren't affected, only the outer ones.
Most particularly, Benjamin may associate better with Sedna than a
prospective twin sun.  This does not mean that the Dark Star theory
gets tossed out.  The existence of a twin sun still seems possible.
Maybe Sedna even started out as a failed sun.  However, the profile of
Sedna as small and red fits that of Benjamin (Horus the Younger) quite
well, and also ties it to the other red planet Mars (Horus the Elder).
It has also been suggested that the redness of Sedna indicates
numerous collisions.  The low spin of Sedna further suggests that it
once had at least one significant moon.  The loss of moons is further
indication of former "battles".  Sedna is now nearing its closest
point to the sun, so it doesn't qualify as a "planet of crossing", at
least not any more.

The second and third to last "sons" of Jacob are extremely important
in mythology.  Naphtali, the next to last, equates to the Great
Goddess.  Asher, equates to the god Enlil, who was considered to be
High God in ancient times (but was overthrown by Anu).
It seems reasonable that the outer solar system bodies with eccentric
and inclined orbits were extremely disruptive (and therefore earned
complete reverence) in the very remote past.  However, as repeated and
violent collisions occurred their "power" over the inner planets has
diminished.  At some point the 12 planet model was replaced by one
featuring only the inner/visible planets and moons.  The twelve gods
became the seven, and many of the original assignments changed.  For
example, the god Thoth/Hermes became associated with the Moon and with
Mercury (as the fast moving moon of the sun), Isis/Ishtar became
associated with Venus, and so forth.  (But this re-mapping could also
be partly due to the non-visible planets being forgotten about over
time.)

Here's another attempt at the original (most ancient) mapping of all
12 solar system planets:

1) Mercury = Reuben ("hot-blooded" and impetuous)
2) Venus = Simeon ("wise")
3) Earth = Levi, the "twin" of Simeon
4) Mars = Judah ("praised")
5) Asteroid Belt = Issachar (the "sacrificed god")
6) Jupiter = Zebulun ("by the waters/sea")
7) Saturn = Dan ("judge")
Cool Uranus = Gad ("fortunate")
9) Neptune and half-pint Pluto = Joseph and (half-tribe) Manasseh
------------
10) Quaoar = Asher ("happy").  It now has a highly circular orbit, but
is not its former self in magnitude, due to receiving an inter-
planetary attack (by Anu/Uranus) according to one theory.
11) Eris = Naphtali ("wrestler", "Mother of the Gods")  Eris/Xenia is
a "planet of crossing", but probably not the home wrecker of the inner
planets that it once had been.
12) Sedna = Benjamin ("son of the right hand")
Other major bodies may yet to be found in the outer solar system, so
this is probably still a premature model, especially for the outer
planets.

Alan, apologies, Anu usurped Alal as you say.  Anu was later attacked
in revenge.  Here's a better analysis:

http://www.domainofman.com/book/tut-3.html

There were two major goddesses in the Mesopotamian pantheon. Ishtar/
Inanna is one, which I associate with Zebulun, who is associated with
the sea (ala Yzebel and Athena, the Phoenician and Greek
counterparts).  (The 12 sons of Jacob has a Patriarchal bias.  The
goddesses are replaced by sons.)  The older/more senior "great
goddess" was Ninhursag.  Inanna was legendary for her large size,
which I think could derive from her original association with the
planet Jupiter.

I associate Ninhursag with Naphtali, but admit that the typecasting is
much more difficult than Zebulun.  Naphtali means "my wrestling",
which implies struggle, however the Blessing of Naphtali calls this
prince a doe, suggesting passivity.  (I like the connection with the
Sumerian napatu.  How about also "Greek fire", naphtha?)  This goddess
is evidently associated with the Biblical Nephilim:

"Naphtali is compared to a wide wandering female deer and,
fantastically, one that issues beautiful words or commands. In
Egyptian nef means "beautiful, perfect," as in the name Nefertiti,
"the beautiful one is come".  In Hebrew, Naphtali is a play on Nephil
(from naphal), a word that has meanings of "tyrant, bully, fallen/
descended one, go forth, issue, scatter, expand." Nephilim is the
title applied to the fallen race of giants spoken of in Genesis 6:4,
and which we now understand to actually be that of the archetypal
Patriarchs. The name Naphtali itself means, "my wrestling" and is
derived from pathal, "to tangle, struggle with, to become intractable,
offensive, rebellious, and contentious." It is also very similar in
form and pronunciation to the word pathah, "to open (the womb),
entice, deceive." "

http://www.domainofman.com/book/tut-2.html

It seems reasonable that the "Great Goddess/Mother of the Gods" should
also be associated with a large planet/body.  But which one is not
apparent.

Well, the attempted mapping of Jacob & Sons to the planets has proven
to be problematic!  It does seem like it should work.  The first five
"sons of Jacob" associate so readily that it does encourage us to keep
trying.  The failure to associate all 12 with confidence probably
means we don't understand mythology or cosmology as well as we need
to!

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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 09:49:29 PM »

Haven't been able to quite get this topic out of my mind yet ...
I really like the association of Joseph to Neptune.  If you recall
Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery, but Joseph ultimately became
the ultimate slaver trader.  All the people sold themselves to the
crown due to Joseph's plan to at least keep them alive.  They were
saved to be enslaved.  The Joseph typecasting in general is as one
that is sent away but eventually makes good through perseverance.
Cosmologists speak of the migration of Neptune toward the outer solar
system from its original position.  Over time Neptune has "cast a
spell" over vast numbers of Kuiper Belt bodies (which are now in
various resonance orbits).

The so-called Neptune "trojans" orbit in 1:1 resonance.  "Twotinos"
have a resonance relationship with Neptune of 2:1.  "Plutinos", which
include Pluto and Orcus and make up about a quarter of all Kuiper Belt
objects, are in 3:2 resonance (three orbits around the sun for each 2
orbits of Neptune).  Pluto and Orcus are the largest plutinos and have
matching inclined orbits relative to Neptune.  If Neptune represents
Joseph, then Orcus and Pluto must be Manasseh and Ephraim.  As the
blessing of Jacob goes, "unto him shall the gathering of the people
be".  And it was Joseph who was to "shut the eyes of Jacob".
Neptune's orbit is so far out that it will likely out-live the Sun
(Jacob).

In myth, Joseph corresponds to the god Ea/Enki.  Ea serves faithfully
the superior god Enlil, who is a "High God".  In planetary terms this
suggests that this god represented a planet of the outer solar
system.  There is no suggestion that Ea was plotting to overthrow
Enlil either peacefully or violently.  (Ea was doing all the work,
Enlil was still getting all the credit.  Ea only very, very slowly
became "Lord of the Kuiper Belt".)  Enlil remains in power until the
Great Flood, at which time there is finally a change in command among
the gods (with the emergence of Horus/Hercules).  But who does Enlil
represent in a planetary sense?  The only celestial body that seems to
remotely fit the bill is Quaoar.  Quaoar is apparently greatly
diminished relative to its former self, but even now retains an orbit
that is independent of Neptune.  We can't say that for any of the
other newly discovered planetoids in the Kuiper Belt, such as Haumea,
Makemake, or Varuna.

The orbit of Eris/Xenia makes a very cozy/tangential approach to
Neptune's path.  The god Ea/Enki had many children by the Great
Goddess Ninhursag.  However, we he began to engage in excessive incest
with their offspring, Ninhursag first poisoned and then healed Ea/
Enki.  Again, this seems to echo the very unique relationship of
orbital paths.  It is thought that Eris and Neptune may now have
achieved a harmonious resonance (17:5), so their "marital woes" may be
a thing only of the past.  In general, mythology indicates that the
collision between two planets produces children.  (This lends a whole
new meaning to "sex and violence")  Originally, it seems that the
planet Eris/Xenia with its eccentric and inclined orbit was considered
to be female in nature.  Eris/Xenia had been powerful enough to clear
out its own orbital path from debris, however the old girl took a
beating in the process.  The earliest myths do not have any issue with
female warriors, however there was a tendency over time to suppress
the feminine and attribute all aggressive/militant operations to male
"action figures".  In the Babylonian Creation Story (Enuma Elish), the
female body is not striking but being struck (first in the mouth and
then severed in two).  The male has triumphed over the female,
Patriarchy has supplanted Matriarchy.  About all that remains in the
Biblical account is the feminine sounding name Naphtali.  The original
myth was that Hathor ("House of Horus") mated with her son Horus the
Elder and produced Horus the Younger.  This was covered up by claiming
that Isis had given birth to the younger Horus via posthumous
fertilization from the dead Osiris' phallus!!

What we have now is two separate "asteroid belts".   One is framed by
the orbits of Neptune ("Joseph") and Sedna ("Benjamin") and the other
by Jupiter and Mars.  Mars, as the planetary equivalent to Horus the
Elder plays a similar role to Sedna, who is logically the planetary
equivalent to Horus the Younger.  Jupiter, although also originally
conceived as a goddess, was later transformed into a Joseph.  The
Roman name Jupiter is a transliteration of the Hebrew Japheth (a
variant of Joseph).  Jupiter dominates the inner asteroid belt as
Neptune dominates the outer one.

We can gain some additional perspective from the Biblical story of
Adam and Eve.  There son Abel (Hittite Alal) is the younger but more
favored son.  Although Abel is killed by Cain (Hittite Anu), we can
deduce from mythology that Abel's line did not die out and in fact
remained the overlords until the Flood.  Although Enlil (Egyptian Shu)
is sometimes called the "son of Anu", he was in fact the continuation
of the natural line of Alal/Abel.  The name Abel ("Father of El")
actually almost spells that out for us.  Anu's natural line went
through Ea/Enki (Enoch, archetypal Joseph, Egyptian Ptah) and through
another Patriarch, Mehushael (Egyptian Horus the Elder).  Patriarchs
Muhujael (Egyptian Osiris) and Lamech (Egyptian Thoth) were descended
from El/Enlil.  Patriarch Irad (Egyptian Re) was the son of Enoch/
Ptah.  In a planetary sense, you have a succession of Saturn (Dan/
Adam), Uranus (Gad/Cain), and then Neptune (Joseph/Enoch).  (Recall
that Cain was not "upright", which would allude to the "prone" spin of
the planet Uranus.)

So, we now have a fairly tidy (as tidy as our solar system can be)
mapping of planets to biblical patriarchs and tribes ("sons of
Jacob").  What boggles the mind, however, is the obsession of the
ancients with cosmology and the so-called Hermetic axiom: "As above,
so below".  The ancient royal court not only modeled their inter-
relationships on the inter-actions of planets and constellations, but
also created major religions based on their understanding of the solar
system and its evolution.  It doesn't seem possible that this mindset
could have developed organically.  According to the Sumerian Flood
Myth, the gods perfected "wide understanding" for man (or at least for
their designated rulers).  In other words, the ancients possessed
"revealed knowledge" rather than developed knowledge.  At the end of
the last Ice Age, their knowledge did not increase but dramatically
decreased as basic principles were lost to devastating natural
disasters and human conflicts.  However, the institution of kingship
continued to cling slavishly to traditions long after any
understanding remained.

It will be interesting in the years to come to see just how accurate
the ancient theories of planet formation and collisions were.  It
should some day become clear whether they had outside help from ET or
not.

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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 10:06:34 PM »

Here are the pertinent posts from the Daily Grail thread:
http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/daz/2010/8/Remote-viewing-the-origin-the-asteroid-belt

"Pet Rock" Theory

Many ancient myths tried to explain the origin of the planets and asteroid belt. In one version, the asteroid belt was personified as a male god, Osiris/Sokar, who was beheaded and had his body parts strewn about. The guilty parties were Thoth and Set (corresponding to what became the second and third planets, Venus and Earth), "who did not know how to mourn for him", according to the Pyramid Texts. But Osiris was "made to live in order to punish" his killers, apparently by pelting them with asteroids.

This idea is clearly reflected by Biblical typecasting, in which the murderers Simeon and Levi (2nd and 3rd sons of Jacob) are implicitly blamed for the untimely death of Issachar (5th son).

In a Babylonian rendition (Enuma Elish), the asteroid belt is personified as a female deity that grew great and haughty with an entourage of satellites. But by the agency of our twin sun, called Marduk, her proud mouth was smashed and her body split in two. One part became the Earth and its atmosphere.

The Greeks thought that Aprhodite (Venus) had sprung fully-formed from the head of Zeus. This also is strongly indicative of a cosmic collision/explosion.

Of course, these are all just theories. How can anyone (even space voyagers) be really sure how this solar system actually formed so many millions and even billions of years ago? The more interesting thing about these hypotheses is that they exist at all. How did they originate, and why did they dominate ancient royal culture so thoroughly?

Somewhat About the Benjamins:

Yes, Rahab is a Biblical rendition of Tiamat.
http://www.dailygrail.com/Guest-Articles...

Issachar is a Biblical counterpart of Osiris/Dionysos. And Moses (Akhenaten) shares characteristics with Benjamin and Phaeton.

But even if there was a twin star, is it still out there or was it destroyed as the myths seem to indicate?

I always considered Akhenaten to be typecast as Re, and that must still be at least partly true. (Louis XIV was called the "Sun King". Old institutions die hard!) But Akhenaten's role playing seems also to have incorporated traits of a twin sun, a celestial body whose rise was brief but brilliant and whose demise was meteoritic.

Some do think that the light of our twin sun went out but it remains as a brown dwarf star (or something akin to it). It was then not literally destroyed or refashioned as inner planets and moons. And if so, then it will probably be found by the WISE telescope. It also follows that the body that purportedly destroyed the "5th Planet" may have only been under the gravitational spell of that twin sun and was not the twin sun itself. It may have been a planet or planetoid with a long, eccentric orbit such as those recently discovered, namely Sedna and Eris/Xenia.

Whatever happened, it certainly had the undying interest of the ancients.

And look at us. We're still space trippin'.

Why were ancient cultures so consumed by the Asteroid Belt? And how would they have known anything about it to begin with? The obsession is strange but it certainly ain't BS. And it is certainly something for us to still be concerned about today!

Our tidy little planetary system was marred by some traumatic event, and one that has created a trail of tears ever since. Weeping was a salient characteristic of the Osiris religion. Osiris was the beautiful god, whose brilliant career was nipped in the bud. Interestingly enough, grieving was a significant aspect of the Phaethon myth as well (and as in the Osiris religion, especially grieving by women). The sun god Helios grieves before and after the wild ride of his over-ambitious son. Likewise, Jacob grieves bitterly over the perceived loss of his youngest son Benjamin.

The Phaethon myth also links with that of Biblical Moses. Phaethon became an adopted prince of Ethiopia/Nubia, just as Moses (according to the Talmud). Phaethon brings great tribulation upon the land. So does Moses. Phaethon turns the sea into dry land. Phaethon is accompanied by pillars of smoke and of fire. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Moses was therefore a type of "Toxic Avenger" in the order of Phaethon/Horus. However, in royal typecasting, the role of Moses was sacrificial. It absorbed the bad elements of both the sun god Re and the mighty champion Horus. Those princes that were saddled with the Moses role, such as Akhenaten, were considered accursed. Similarly, Phaethon was made the companion of Epaphos (Horus) rather than an alias of Epaphos.

To confuse things further, the name of Icarus (who also wildly flew too close to the sun before crashing and burning) appears to be an anagram of Issachar and Sokar. Was there really any difference between the fifth planet and the twelfth planet?

Christianity was the culmination of this cosmic theorizing. In that latest formulation, the Osiris figure (John the Baptist) had to decrease (literally be beheaded) in order for the Horus/Benjamin figure (Jesus) to increase. (In Egyptian myth, Horus was not born until just after Osiris was murdered.) And yet it was necessary for the light of the Horus to also be prematurely snuffed out. Jesus also melds the mythical roles of Horus with that of Osiris/Issachar and the mad Phaethon/Moses.

What is going on here? Why are major religions fashioned after a presumed slap shot through our solar system's "five-hole"? It's definitely a mystery. Either the event occurred relatively recently or it is passed down to mankind through an extra-terrestrial source. I presently lean toward the latter explanation. It appears to be part of that "broad understanding" that the gods "perfected" toward man. In other words, it was included in a system of knowledge that eventually deteriorated into cruel superstition.

Did ancient man get that basic knowledge originally through "channeling" or more directly from "ancient astronauts"? That's a rhetorical question. I don't expect anybody to answer that. But it seems to me there should be a few things we can deduce from ancient myth and modern archaeology.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1306555/Our-terrifyingly-crowded-solar-How-asteroids-closing-in.html
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 10:18:30 PM »

It can be a disaster to fixate on a pet personality from history or some other narrow aspect and then willy-nilly develop a grand theory. And, yes, we have seen this kind of thing before, time and time again! However, the "Eureka Moment" is often how new theories originate. A good example is Ahmed Osman's epiphany that 18th Dynasty Prime Minister Yuya must somehow be related to the Biblical Joseph. It turned out to be quite true, but in ways that could never have been imagined. The solution was both simpler and more complex than one would think. The Biblical pattern of "Jacob and his 12 sons" was actually derived from an original Egyptian model. Re was archetypal "troubled Jacob" and his "12 sons" were the other leading members of the Egyptian pantheon:

1) Geb/"Eldest Son" (Reuben); 2) Thoth/"Know-It-All" (Simeon); 3) Set/"Rehabilitated Hit Man" (Levi/Seth); 4) Horus the Elder/"Warrior" (Judah); 5) Osiris/Sokar/"Sacrificed" (Issachar); 6) Isis/Yzebel (Zebulun); 7) On/Anu (Gad); Cool Shu (Asher); 9) Atum/Tem (Dan) 10) Hathor (Naphtali); 11) Ptah (Joseph); 12) Horus the Younger (Benjamin).

These 13 gods and goddesses are further mapped to the pantheons of other regions.

So, Biblical history started emerging as a sanitized version of Egyptian history and also one that borrowed heavily from Egyptian and other Near Eastern mythologies. Suddenly, we knew a lot more about the ancient world than ever thought possible. We had just overlooked and mis-interpreted the single greatest source of knowledge about the ancient world - the Bible! The process of proving that did in fact go from the specific to the more general, but was validated nonetheless (after analyzing every successive generation of ancient royalty from Adam to Zedekiah and from Pharaoh Chephron to Prince Charles). I can't get into all the details here of course, but do bring it up as an example of the controversial nature of alternative history research.

I didn't intend to imply that Biblical/historical figures from the ancient world were any greater than modern "heroes", but we do have the ability now to better understand their multi-cultural context. I'm also not saying that kingship is the best form of government, but we need to better understand how it operated, how pervasive it became, and how it was able to persist for so long. People today just cannot appreciate how powerful mafia-style networks can grow, or how difficult it is to get rid of them once they have been fully institutionalized. It's hard enough to bust them up even when they are declared/legislated as illegal!

I would like to think that the ancient world was too big and people too primitive for a single extended family to effectively "rule the world". (Hint: If Attila the Hun was a true outsider to Rome/Byzantium, he would have been called "The Scourge of the Devil" and not "The Scourge of God". God is always on OUR side, not THEIR side.) Unfortunately, the more you dig, the more evidence there is to support the conclusion that the few dominated the many. An enormous monolithic temple-city complex dating from 9,000 BC is now being excavated in Turkey at a location called Göbekli Tepe. This site reflects a high degree of social organization and a form of technology. Kingship and the priesthood (possessing a "practical magic") were already firmly established by that date!

Alternative history is not purely an Academic matter. Collusion/corruption is once again the scourge of our planet. How do we maintain a fair playing field for all people and still live in harmony with the natural world? The balance has not been achieved lately in the Gulf of Mexico! As oppressive as kingship was to ordinary people, it did at least provide some protection to the environment against the ravages of human over-population and pollution. Kingship resulted in a largely static (anti-growth/anti-development) society other than devising new weapons to win succession battles. "Innovation" was a bad word in ancient times. The mandate of kings was not to pursue progress, but simply to "occupy" until the return of the gods. They believed that "kingship was lowered from heaven", or at least wanted their subjects/slaves to believe that.

And what are we supposed to believe today? Is mankind's reach for the heavens doomed to failure? Are we nothing more than an "escaped lab experiment"? Is this planet really the property of a more advanced race, or even worse, a place contested by multiple space-faring beings? Is our solar system just too unstable for intelligent life to exist permanently on Earth? Is all our striving in vain? I've spent my entire life pursuing science and technology, as well as historical studies. I don't want to learn that it was all just a waste of my life, but maybe it's time to face "the truth".

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