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Author Topic: David and Bathsheba vice Solomon and Bathsheba  (Read 17811 times)
Chuck-Star
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« on: January 17, 2011, 01:16:33 AM »

The recent insight that the Middle Kingdom name, Senusret ("Man of the Strong Goddess"), was an epithet of Thoth has prompted me to revisit a similar New Kingdom name, Senenmut ("Man of the Great Goddess Mut").  

http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=5.0
(Scroll to Reply #3)

Senusret and Senenmut are equivalent names and finally help resolve a mystery associated with Biblical Bathsheba ("Daughter of Sheba").  It had already been concluded that Bathsheba was a daughter or granddaughter of David's minister Ahithophel, who was in turn a biblical representation of Senenmut.  The linking of the name Senenmut to Thoth and Thoth to Sheba further confirms the association.

For previous discussion of Thoth and Sheba, see:
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=2211
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=74

In the Kings narrative, the story of "King David" is a composite of two historical kings, Thutmose I and his son (and ultimate successor) Thutmose III.  "King Solomon" is likewise a composite of the two historical kings, Amenhotep II and his eventual successor Amenhotep III.  However, it can now be said that one additional central character in that Kings narrative also represents two separate persons.  Bathsheba mother of Solomon is to be associated with a different historical person than Bathsheba of rooftop bathing fame.

To untangle the Bathsheba character we have to look back at the Genesis narrative of Isaac and Rebeccah, as well as Jacob and Esau.  Issac marries the sister of Laban.  However, in the narrative Rebeccah acts more like a daughter to Laban than a sister.  Laban is the one that must approve of Rebeccah's union with Isaac.  Later, the son of Isaac and Rebeccah, Jacob, in turn marries two daughters of Laban, Rachel and Leah.  Historically speaking there were two important Laban figures during that time period.  The elder is the nominal founder of the Hittite Empire, Labarna/Labarnas (a.k.a. Tabarna and Barattarna of Mitanni), contemporary with the founding of the Egyptian New Kingdom.  His successor is also called Labarnas and variously as Hattusilis.  Hattusilis means "Man of the Stone Inscribing Place" and is therefore a Thoth-styled name.  The Hebrew name Laban, patently based on Labarna, means "white" and is related to the Hebrew word for "moon" (due to its whiteness).  Thoth was of course the Egyptian "moon-god".  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hittite_kings

Note: There does not seem to be an accepted definition of the name Labarna, however other etymologies associating the name Labarna to Thoth probably exist, e.g. through the name Libya, a predominantly Thoth-worshipping region.

Biblical Rebeccah was not only the sister of one king named Laban (Labarna) but likely the daughter of another Laban (a.k.a Bethuel/Bet-Hul, "House of God/Sun"), see Gen. 24:47-50), and therefore a genuine "Bath-Sheba".  She was also the mother of both Jacob (successor of Isaac) and of Esau who lost the birthright of kingship but made an uneasy peace with Jacob.  The Bathsheba that tempted David was a different princess, but closely related to the first.  This Bathsheba would have been daughter of the second king Laban (and grand-daughter of the first king Laban).  In Egypt, she corresponds to Nefrure/Sitiah the daughter of Senenmut by Hatshepsut.  A marriage between Hatshepsut and Senenmut did not occur in Egypt, however many statues depict Senenmut nurturing Nefrure as a father would his daughter.

Hatshepsut was something of a Bathsheba herself in that she was the daughter of Thutmose and queen of Thutmose II.  She then acted as regent for Thutmose III before taking the throne in her own right as pharaoh.  Hatshepsut in the Kings narrative is clearly reflected in the highly singular character of Absalom.  Bathsheba is a much less developed character and a much more generic name, especially at a time of so many Thoth-kings.  What gives the name Bathsheba more significance is the hidden link to the dynasty of Laban/Labarna in Mesopotamia, which was arguably superior up until the conquests of David/Thutmose III.  One leading Bathsheba was the first wife/queen of David/Thutmose III and mother of the immediate successor, Amenhotep II, in Egypt.  The other became a concubine and ancestress of the kings that founded the 19th Dynasty of Egypt.  

Note:  Recall that in Genesis Terah has a brother named Nahor.  The Laban line descends from Nahor.  Isaac descends from Terah.  The marriage of Isaac to Rebeccah represents a political alliance between the two main kingly branches of the day.

The Genesis account is paralleled by the one in Kings where the claims to kingship of Adonijah initially appear stronger than that of Solomon.  Although Adonijah eventually concedes the kingship (at least over "Israel") to his younger brother, he appeals to Bathsheba for the consolation prize of David's final concubine Abishag.  Adonijah is the direct counterpart of Esau in Genesis.  Bathsheba is mediating between Adonijah and Solomon as Rebeccah does between Jacob and Esau in Genesis.  We must conclude then that Adonijah was not literally put to death by Solomon but forced to give up his Egyptian identity due to his attempt to gain political advantage by manipulating their shared mother.  The Egyptian name of Esau was Menkheperre (son of Thutmose III), however he is better known by the Mesopotamian identity of Saussatar, rival of Amenhotep II in Egypt.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 02:27:00 AM by Chuck-Star » Logged
Chuck-Star
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 12:06:54 AM »

Answers.com thinks that the association between biblical Absalom and historical Hatshepsut has merit!

"2 Samuel 18:18 says that Absalom raised an obelisk in the king's dale, or valley of the kings, saying that he had no sons. If the Hebrew legend of Absalom is as old as the time of the United Kingdom, the obelisk in the king's dale points to its origins in other nations, since David was only the second king of Israel and there could not yet have been a 'valley of the kings' in the land. Based on chapter 13, a credible possibility is that the legend of Absalom is based, at least in part, on Egypt's Queen Hatshepsut, who ruled in her own right, wearing male clothing and a false beard."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_2_Samuel_15_about
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farang
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 06:56:34 AM »

Hi Charles,

Interesting as always, thanks. I was wondering, are you certain that "Solomon" was a composite of Amenhotep II and III? (Let's ignore Ramses II as an Usurper of Amenhotep III's fame, yes?)

I say this, because of a line in one of your articles that gave me great pause when I read it: I had never heard that name before.

And, your chart 16 shows the man I think you have shown is the *original* "Solomon."  And guess where he is located on your chart? Right above Amenhotep II and III.

Zalmunneh. If that isn't Zal eh munn, I'll eat my hat!

Hyksos pharaoh Khyan. The guy that Andis Kaulins documents quite convincingly as also the first Moses. "Sobeke Msaf, Moses, the first one.

And, looking up bible passage online after reading your brief reference to his murder in that article I cited above.....guess what? He was riding a camel when he was murdered, along with his wife.

This camel? Had decorations of a silver moon and stars. You did say in the post that "laban" meant "white" referring to the moon?

Guess what? Khyan was a renowned temple builder! Guess what else? His reign was "30-40 years" according to Wikipedia.

Very little is known, or disclosed about this fellow.  But, I am offering up "Zalmunneh" as Solomon. The *original.*

And, not sure I can agree "Queen of Sheba" was a mortal. I think she was "Sauska" aka Ishtar, a statue of whom was sent by Tushratta to his buddy Amenhotep III (twice!). Guarded by those pesky "Shepas" of Mittani...which I believe were Sherpas, mercenaries of the Armenian King Tushratta. "Mittani" my foot. Hurrian my foot, Cilician my foot, Phyrgian my foot, Sumerian my foot: these are all Aratta kings, Urartu (Akkadian) kings, Ararat (Hebrew) Kings: Armenian kings. Anthropology is on my side: their remains are categorized as "Armenoid." As are "Hebrew" remains found.

Tush of Aratta. His forefather's land.

The land of the Ia/Ea/Ya people: http://www.ancientanatolia.com/map03.htm

These folks were "Aryans." They migrated down all the way to India, turned around, and settled everything between the two lands....They stopped on the way through Iran, and founded the first kingdom: Elam. They were the Elamites. http://www.enotes.com/topic/Historical_powers#Hurrian_Kingdoms.

Ever hear of Goblki Tepe, my friend? Guess where that is located? Within the ancient kingdom of Urartu/Aratta/Ararat.

These be some OLD hominid families, Charles.

Their main deity was a fellow named TaiSheba (TaiSub link on Wiki.) A storm god. His wife? Sauska. Aka Ishtar. In Hurrian, she was known as "Hepa."

She was literally the Queen of (Tai)Sheba. My take on it, anyway. Statue full of KA.

I favor Lab'Ayu as Lion Man, and that can only be one guy: Amenhotep III. Not "Ahab", not Aye", but rather that was the guy that was renowned for killing 100 lions before age 16 with arrows: Amenhotep III. The guy with lions decorating the Temple of Clytemenstra (the sex organ of Estra/Ester/Ishtar/Easter/Sausga/Sauka) in Mycenae. The one with a pyramid over entrance, and Amenhotep III and Tiye's cartouches in it. I am *guessing* he is also Shalmeneser III, the guy with the Lion wall in Babylon's Temple of Ishtar....

Read an interesting passage today that "Lab'ayu" supposedly "took the same path as Shalmeneser III" when he raided and conquered......(CIAS website on Amarna letters.)

Again, just my clumsy attempt at tying loose ends. Sorry if I am way off base....But.......

Got some more curious stuff on this ancient kingdom of Aratta, seemingly ignored by those of us doing this sleuthing, and I will share on a new comment thread.
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 12:57:21 AM »

Farang,

Great insights!!  

The 18th Dynasty pharaohs were clearly patterning themselves after the previous dynasty, i.e., the Hyksos (who they had supposedly evicted, haha).

Now that you have mentioned it, there is quite a bit more to learn from the comparison with the Hyksos.

http://www.domainofman.com/book/pdf/chart-16.pdf

Looking at the chart, the Hyksos Solomon figure shares a common Egyptian name (Sobekemsaf) and Hebrew epithet (Nahor) with the Judah figure of that dynasty.  I totally agree that the name Zalmunnah is a variant of Solomon, although neither Sobekemsaf nor Amenhotep II/III were the original Solomon.  There was a king of this type in every major Egyptian dynasty, e.g., Nynetjer of the Old Kingdom and Nymaatre (Amenemhet III) of the Middle Kingdom.

This time last year the DNA studies of the Amarna mummies came out and led to the stunning conclusion that Amenhotep III and Aye were one and the same person.  Certainly, we only have one mummy, however many other indications now point to a double identity.

http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=41.0
http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?topic=49.0

You've given us yet another reason to suspect that Aye and Amenhotep III were one in the same.  That being the close identification of the Hyksos rulers that played similar roles.  In the absense of enough princes to play all parts, it often became necessary to wear more than one hat (so no need to eat yours!).  Were the two kings known as Sobekemsaf of the Hyskos period also one and the same.  Something to consider, at least.

One thing we can now say for sure.  The typecasting goes back thousands of years prior to the founding of the Egyptian Old Kingdom.  We actually found evidence for this among the ruins of Gobekli Tepe!

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=13589
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=13604

The symbolism (of rebirth/renewal/"new covenant") attached to Ararat/Armenia is quite distinct.

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=13602
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=13427

« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 01:36:50 PM by Chuck-Star » Logged
Chuck-Star
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 01:35:05 PM »

I moved the material about the Borgias to another thread if anyone is interested in discussing it:

http://www.domainofman.com/boards/index.php?board=19.0

Getting back to the Hyksos, we can certainly gain insight not only by looking forward to the next (18th) dynasty but also by looking back at the previous (12th) dynasty.  Recall that the Middle Kingdom Solomon was Amenemhet III and he also played the role of Benjamin.  This is a direct parallel to Amenhotep III of the New Kingdom, who we now suspect of playing the additional role of Aye, who was clearly a Benjamin (Horus the Younger) figure.  Does that mean the Khyan, Solomon of the Hyksos Period, was also leading a double life?  It seems quite likely then, however the exact form that it took would require a good bit more study to tease out. 

The overall form of the Hyksos dynasty parallels the 18th Dynasty quite closely.  First you have a powerful all-conquering Joshua figure.  Hyksos Salitis and New Kingdom Thutmose I/Thutmose III.  This is followed by Jacob and Solomon figures.  Hyksos Yakubher and Khyan and New Kingdom Amenhotep II & III.  There is a prominent but short-lived Judah figure thrown in the mix.  The New Kingdom has Thutmose IV as a strong Judah type.  Biblical Nahor II ("brother" of Terah) is also very strongly a Judah figure, but his Hyksos identity is not readily apparent.  He is better known as an Assyrian king named Adad-nirari (Hebraized to "Nahor"), who bullied a comtemporary king Shattuara (Hebraized to "Terah").  This Judah king was father of the the early New Kingdom luminaries, Thutmose II ("Perez") and Senenmut ("Zerah").  Tao/Apophis as Moses king was followed by the Joshua styled king Thutmose I.  (Recall that a Moses figure has two "sons", Eliezer and Gershom.  The younger is the Joshua figure.  The elder is an Osiris or "forerunner" figure, which is played by Terah's son Abraham.)  The Solomon king Khyan undoubtedly also had an Assyrian king name, specifically Shalmaneser (Hebraized to Zalmunnah).

In the New Kingdom, the Solomon figure Amenhotep III was followed by a Moses son of Joseph figure, Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten.  In the Hyksos period, Tao/Apophis/Shattuara is typecast as the persecuted Moses figure.  And so the cycle repeated and would continue to repeat.

We can easily see all of the other tired old stereotypes in action during the Hyksos period.

Kamose (Biblical Saul/Iscah son of Haran) was forced to play the role of the large and impatient god Geb, i.e., the disgraced "eldest son" role of Reuben.  In fact, the story of King Saul is contrived to the point of being utterly ridiculous.  As it turns out, Kamose was only being removed from the southern sphere of Israel and Egypt in order to accept some greater kingship in Mesopotamia and the East.  Although named last, Haran was arguably the greater of the three brothers Terah, Nahor, and Haran.  Iscah son of Haran would have been expected to succeed Haran in the East.  So, the whole charade of Saul screwing everything up and then falling on his sword was just that, a means of fulfilling a necessary royal role and then exiting stage right to his appointed place within the larger empire, probably as Kadashman-harbe son of Kara-indash:

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=13422

There are a couple of obvious Simeon/Thoth (second son) figures.  The prophet Samuel comes immediately to mind, who corresponds to the Egyptian High Priest of the time, Minmose.  (Min/Minh is also an alias of Thoth.)

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=1428

In the kingly realm, the name of pharaoh Ah-mose is also derived from Thoth, Ah being an Egyptian word for moon (Ah).

Third son (Levi/Seth) figures abound in this period.  The name Sobek refers to Seth in his form of the crocodile.

We already mentioned the Judah figure Adad-Nirari, whose Egyptian identity is not entirely clear.

Amenhotep I (Hanan/Aner/Phurah) was something of a fifth son or Osiris figure.  Teti/Djehuty/Ibrim (Abram) was an "eldest son" or Reuben figure but later also shared the Osiris typecasting.  Biblical Abram was renamed Abraham (by "God"), which indicates a transition in his official typecasting.  We should expect some morphing and overlap in Hyksos role playing as was also common in other dynasties that we know much more about.

As far as Benjamin figures, Khyan was surely one, but Thutmose I (and later Thutmose III) also took up that mantle.

A Joseph figure is difficult to find in the Hyksos period, but again, there had to be at least one by definition.  "All things must be fulfilled."  The Egyptian name of the contemporary Joseph figure was possibly Amenmeses. 

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=1029

In later dynasties there was a tendency to consolidate as many roles as possible by the leading king, and particulary by a Sargon wannabee.  This reached its climax with Sargon II/Piye.  In other words, an attempt was made for the "fullness of the godhead/pantheon" to reside in a single man, which of course is a precursor to the later conception of Christ (who combines the attributes of Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Osiris, Thoth, etc.).

My guess is that Amenmeses was simply another Egyptian idenitity of Tao/Apophis, who also clearly saw himself as a "Sargon the Great" figure.

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=4067
http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?read=13479
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 05:15:05 PM »

Chart 6 is also of some help to sorting out Hyksos typecasting:

http://www.domainofman.com/book/pdf/chart-06.pdf

Note that the 16th Dynasty king name Anather is a Joseph-styled name.  Recall in the Bible Joseph is given the epithet Zaphenath-Paneah.

Something else to consider is whether Khyan is just a Hyksos rendition of the Kassite name Karan-Indash.

The Hyksos Period is a favorite of some Biblical researchers because it is so obscure and therefore a possible place for those elusive Biblical Patriarchs to lurk.  However, it is now clear that the Hyksos dynasty was not really a departure from royal tradition of earlier (or later) times.  All of royal history is Biblical history.  The major source of confusion is the two very different formulations of that history found in the Bible.  The Torah is a history written from the perspective of royal "doves".  The Kings/Chronicles narrative is one written from the perspective of royal "hawks".  The two histories overlap considerably, but the difference in perspective hides it quite well.
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farang
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 07:24:03 AM »

Hi Charles....great insights you offer, as always, I stand in awe.

I see the Salitis fellow as an obvious "Saul" ("Sal") ...a few kings before Khyan, following same typecasting. With Apep (Agog) following closely behind him, just like in the bible chronology. In fact, go to wikipedia, and search "Saul" then "Salitis" and what do you find? Both "united" their kingdoms as the first king of their dynasty. Go figure, eh?

Now, who was Samuel in the preceding dynasty that appoints Saul..and who the  "David" figure for Khyan? Maybe I need to read your posts here, I think you answered that already...I shouldn't be skimming before commenting: I should read carefully first....

Btw: cartouches of Khyan were also found...on Crete, at the Temple of Knowledge (Knossos)...as were A.H. III and Tiye's...and Seti I. In fact, a city called "Setoy" was founded during that period on Crete.

I need to go back and read the replies you wrote, thanks, have something to read this evening.....I was unaware we had DNA evidence confirming Ay is AH III. Or I read too quickly, or the chocolate Laos sativa is kicking in....not called farang fer nuthin'.

The Kaulin's linkage of Moses to Sobekemsaf...he uses the record of the trial of tomb robbers to link the two...best read it for yourself at lexiline.com if you haven't already. Andis is quite the brainiac..not that I agree with all his assertions. He sees Ramses II as "Solomon"....and perhaps he was....one of them, I look more for the root, the source.

Here's something from left field: I read a link stating a DNA study showed the Ojibwa and Sioux Native American tribes share an obscure European mtDNA trait...with links to the Med area....the "Su???" Contemporaries of Mittani and Hurrians? A tribe that seems to have come from the far east of the near east...and the Native Americans share that Chinese/Asian DNA. In fact, I dated a Ping Su once, from Beijing.

Here's something you may enjoy if you haven't already discovered it and covered it: http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm

Offers the theory that ALL "gods" from this period once were real people, that the ancients worshiped ancestors and these morphed into "gods"....and that the bible YHWH is in fact an combination of the 7 Persian gods...and gives very convincing arguments, charts, everything......Tushratta's brother was Abraham...according to this theory. Good chronology chart too...take a peek. I think 4 or 5 pages...long read.

Now, I go back and enjoy the great reads you provide. Especially that Gobelki Tepe stuff you kindly provided.... Thanks Charles. 

And, anytime I am obviously way off course, feel free to steer me back: I enjoy  "updating" my memory banks with the latest findings. Even if it proves my assertions 180 degrees off.

Oh heck! Almost forgot: I think I know who "Priam" REALLY is. Would a fellow depicted wearing a pharaoh-like crown (like a cross between a Buddhist temple on your head and Egyptian  Narmer/Naram Sin /Hathor horns...including his mace to bash heads...fit the requirement? Riding a black crow, and sometimes holding the pharaoh's trident, known as a "terrorist"?

Well, he is Saturn...aka Shani....aka ShaniPriya. Take a peek: http://www.gemstoneuniverse.com/bluesappire.php for the image.....and http://wwwramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/oct96/0154/html   this one is funny: someone wants to know if "Shanipriya" is good name for their baby...the author almost craps his pants in response... anyway....it fits, because Tushratta, according to another link....is a very famous Indian king ( so famous, the author sarcastically states it is a name EVERY Indian elementary school student knows well)....and the article alleges that ALL the kings of the region, including Egypt, were VASSALS of his. In fact, it alleges India has ancient records that state the name of all the vassal Indian princes placed on thrones in the region, and their "minders"....Yuya and Tuyu comes to mind.... I think so...Yuya DOES look "Indian" to me.

I can't get over how much some images (statues) of Khyan aka Apachnan...looks like he is wearing an Apache headress....

out
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Chuck-Star
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 02:18:34 AM »

Saul means "asked for" in Hebrew, and relates to Israel asking for a king to protect them from their enemies.  However, the flip side of kingship was tyranny.  

King Saul plays the role of the physically large but mentally weak god Geb.  His "fate" is to be superceded in the office of kingship by crafty little Horus (the Younger).  In the Biblical remix, tall Saul is replaced by short David.  The two "divine types" are closely linked.  Both are champions, but one is deemed to have the right stuff and the other not.  It is somewhat arbitrary.

I never considered a word play between Saul and Sal, but it seems reasonable.  Yet, the story of Saul doesn't equate well to what we know of Salitis, who is instead the parallel of Biblical Joshua.  What's really odd is that a later Horus figure, King Asa, also had the epithet of Saul/Shaul.  I can't explain that one.  Why was Asa also "asked for"?  Was Saul/Shaul actually a Hebrew epithet of Horus rather than of Geb?  (Asa, "healer", is a variant of Issa/Jesus/Joshua in his miracle-working attribute.)

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 02:20:15 AM by Chuck-Star » Logged
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